Curse

rii · Sep 12, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

All good points there. While I'm not sure what the DPS comparison for thumpers versus the rage theory is, thumpers do have useful skills on their bar. That said, my build (equipped with sentinels armor), has much more surivability. I'm not sure if that would justify replacing a thumper with a rager - in fact i'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

But imagine a rager and a thumper on the same target. Deadly, IMHO.

Imagine two thumpers on a target. Imagine three. Imagine two warriors with frenzy on a target (who is unable to strafe). All deadly, and nothing there is of any note.

If you lack survivability, get a monk. Ultimately, this kind of battle rage DPS is similar-ish to a thumper, except it uses all 8 skills on its bar to achieve what a thumper does with two -tigers fury and charm animal (slight... mass exaggeration).

The only reason you would want something over a thumper is if it had some unique aspect a thumper didn't give you. The dragon slash guys from [NUKE] have gale, frenzy, and rush on top of that, which is worth it if that is what you need (also have +AL) (and triple smite loves KD, and increased movement speed - so that is justified). This offers a speed boost and a bit of extra AL, but nothing besides damage after that, because too many slots are taken up with mindless +damage skills. I am also of the opinion that out of all three warrior weapon lines sever/gash is the worst way to inflict a deep wound. KD+crushing is good, and evis is awesome, even dismember+executioners is alright, at least get it on either a) fast or b) with good secondary effect (before considering potential mitigations). Basically the only reason I can see, until convinced otherwise to run battle rage instead of a thumper is to be different for the sake of being different, whatsmore sacrificing effectiveness along the way.

ogami_ito · Sep 12, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

How did this get into a thread about Thumpers vs. Rage Warrior? I will admit, as I'm not really part of a guild (I am a part of a Guild , but do not do any guild things, so I'm not really a part of it), I have not played AB yet and have played little TA. But I know thumpers don't work well in the competitive missions, RA, and probably not in AB from what I understand.

Are you making this comparison because they are both supposed to be DPSers (instead of spikers)?

It seems to me that if you wanted to take a Rage warrior into battle over a thumper, it is becuase you want the +26 or so armor it has over a thumper, and the higher weapon crits. And because a warrior in Kurzik armor carrying a sword or axe looks cooler than a twerpy looking ranger carrying a stupid looking hammer.

LightningHell · Sep 12, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

How did this get into a thread about Thumpers vs. Rage Warrior? I will admit, as I'm not really part of a guild (I am a part of a Guild , but do not do any guild things, so I'm not really a part of it), I have not played AB yet and have played little TA. But I know thumpers don't work well in the competitive missions, RA, and probably not in AB from what I understand.

Are you making this comparison because they are both supposed to be DPSers (instead of spikers)?

It seems to me that if you wanted to take a Rage warrior into battle over a thumper, it is becuase you want the +26 or so armor it has over a thumper, and the higher weapon crits. And because a warrior in Kurzik armor carrying a sword or axe looks cooler than a twerpy looking ranger carrying a stupid looking hammer.

I am guessing that's the reason (Are you making this comparison because they are both supposed to be DPSers (instead of spikers)?).

Thumpers might not work in trash like RA and AB (from what I hear), but Thumpers work perfectly fine anywhere else in PvP.

Thumpers have Irresistable Blow, a pet, not-so-vulernable to Blackout...etc. I'm not a Warrior and therefore I won't really talk a lot here.

Poison Ivy · Sep 12, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

How did this get into a thread about Thumpers vs. Rage Warrior?

Read the name of the thread.

rii · Sep 12, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Thumpers work fine in RA and AB.

ogami_ito · Sep 12, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

So...now that we are going off-topic... are thumpers better than warriors in PvP?

Scourgey · Sep 12, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Yes, battle rage has an edge over bunny thumpers in that battle rage has a speed boost, a permanent one if no one uses wild blow on you.

This is really the main thing going for Battle rage, is that it's less suspectible to kiting.

rii · Sep 12, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Barely, a thumper-based team can easily sub in a copy or few of charge for party-wide speed boosts.

As for thumpers v warriors in PVP it isn't a competition. A thumper probably provides more DPS than a warrior, along with other things such as free corpses, spammable guardian hate, etc, but a warrior has many more roles then just DPS. In the specific case of this warrior build against a thumper, yeah, I think thumper wins. Warriors do more than 1 thing though.

Byron · Sep 12, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Imagine two thumpers on a target. Imagine three. Imagine two warriors with frenzy on a target (who is unable to strafe). All deadly, and nothing there is of any note.

Point taken. All popular melee builds are effective, to be sure. I doubt this build I've posted can outmatch any of them, certainly not for utility's sake. However, it can be another card in a somewhat limited deck of melee possibilities. It could be one the enemy isn't expecting.

Quote:

Ultimately, this kind of battle rage DPS is similar-ish to a thumper, except it uses all 8 skills on its bar to achieve what a thumper does with two -tigers fury and charm animal

Even though the thumper bar isn't filled with attack skills as a rager's is, all of a thumper's skills are offensive, directly or otherwise. I freely admit the Rage Theory warrior has only one use: damage.

Quote:

I am also of the opinion that out of all three warrior weapon lines sever/gash is the worst way to inflict a deep wound.

I'd agree with you in most circumstances, but in this build, sever/gash is superior because it can be used so much. Sun and moon slash provides 4 strikes of adrenline, protector's provides 2, sever artery another two, then gash is ready to go. There's a possibility of two deep wounds in 4 seconds time. Rinse, repeat, and hit standing slash where appropriate(which is always).

Quote:

Basically the only reason I can see, until convinced otherwise to run battle rage instead of a thumper is to be different for the sake of being different, whatsmore sacrificing effectiveness along the way.

I'm not sure if thumpers will surive the next skill balance untouched. In fact, I doubt thumpers will be as effective after the skill balance. Maybe then it would be prudent to consider other DPS options, but for now, I don't see my build replacing thumpers, or anything for that matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Are you making this comparison because they are both supposed to be DPSers (instead of spikers)?

That is exactly right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Thumpers have Irresistable Blow, a pet, not-so-vulernable to Blackout...etc.

Irresistible blow, yes. Pet, yes. Though, I think a blackout against a rager would be almost a waste - it doesn't stop battle rage, and it's very easy to regain the lost adrenaline. Blackout is much better against a dragon slasher or hammer warrior, or any build that relies on the gain/spike archetype.

glountz · Sep 12, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I used a Battle Rage build for a long time. I must say that it is very unflexible. The reason is the lack of spiking ability linked to KD. Remember also that Battle Rage resets all your AD when recasted. No condition removal, nor Healing signet (which is a godly skill), will increase dramatically the pressure on your monk who will have to do a work for you he wouldn't have to if you used plague touch or healing sig.
I used this build:
Wa/Mo
Sentinel Armor (you won't be able to heal, so protect yourself).
Stance equipment.
Strenght 12+1
Weapon 12+1+3

Core:
1)Res signet
2)Succor or Watchful spirit (to cover a vampiric weapon) or Balth spirit on two squishies, an alternate build is to use Holy wrath (on your squishies) or Strenght of Honor (on you and one of your friends - like a sin or a ranger) while lowering Strenght/weapon to put 10 points in Smite.
3)Battle Rage [E]

Alternates:

Sword:
4)Sun&Moon
5)Sever artery
6)Gash
7)Galrath
8)Silverwing

Axe:
4)Penetrating chop
5) Penetrating Blow
6)Dismember
7)Axe rake
8)Executioner's

On the Sword Vs Axe issue, both builds are IMHO equivalent. Sever+Gash is equal of Dismember + Axe rake (damage wise), but I prefer really Dis + Rake for its DW covering + its crippling ability which will increase your overall DPS (and melee friend's ones) a lot.
The axe DPS is higher than the sword one (regardless of the skills). There will be time were Battle Rage won't be active, generally when you won't be attacking, blinded or whatever. Galrath/Silverwing may be more damaging than double Penetrating, but you will spam them also less often. The real trick here is Sun/Moon Slash which will charge the other skills, but have no +damage.
The skill combo of the sword will do more damage, but its regular DPS is slightly lower than the axe one.
Only maths could prove either one better than the other.

In this kind of build, your monk will be have to handle you in addition of himself, don't forget. It's not that easy.

Symbol · Sep 12, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

The axe DPS is higher than the sword one (regardless of the skills). There will be time were Battle Rage won't be active, generally when you won't be attacking, blinded or whatever. Galrath/Silverwing may be more damaging than double Penetrating, but you will spam them also less often. The real trick here is Sun/Moon Slash which will charge the other skills, but have no +damage.
The skill combo of the sword will do more damage, but its regular DPS is slightly lower than the axe one.
Only maths could prove either one better than the other.

The math emphatically prove sword is better. You get more +damage on standing, IIRC even sun and moon is slightly better than penetrating on soft targets, and the huge adrenaline gain from the double strike means you can spam the whole combo basically without interruption. On top of that there's the 6 dps you get from bleeding.

Axes are only very slightly better than swords without attack skills, 2dps in fact. Unless you're constantly getting crits the autoattack damage of the two is indistinguishable.

As far as thumpers go, a thumper + pet will do less raw dps than this on a kiting target (a speedboost is more effective in getting hits on a moving target than an IAS). What you have to decide is whether the constant knockdowns from hammer bash and IB spam is worth the tradeoff of lower damage.

Taurus · Sep 12, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Oh my... you acted so superior about this mediocre build that I will have to flame it. I dont even know where to start, lets see :

- Those videos were about hitting the EASIEST targets in the training isle. To show that you are a true damage dealer, you have to be able to take out the master of enchantment, only then you MIGHT be able to say you have a good build to kill casters. ( A shock hammer warrior can take down that 60 armor lvl dummy in 6 seconds without even charging adrenaline on the 100 armor dummy ).

- 80-90 damage using skills ? Thats the average damage for axes and hammers. Hammers on PURE critical hits @ 16 Mastery get as high as 78 damage on 60-AL targets, using irresistible blow with almost no strength attribute hits for 115 damage on crits, and its a 4 second recharge skill. That damage you do doesnt means anything.

- Every decent build has at least 1 interrupting skill or KD, they're useful in a lot of situations, and to compensate the sword's lack of damage, you just threw a lot of damage skills together. Sometimes interrupting a diversion, claim resource or a mantra of recall helps a lot.

Please, next time you have a idea for a build, test it out in REAL pvp enviroment first ( ask a boon prot friends of yours to scrimmage ) and ask for other's opinions before saying its the UBER MEGA MASTER build, this just made you look ( very ) stupid in front of real PvP'ers.

Byron · Sep 12, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurus

Please, next time you have a idea for a build, test it out in REAL pvp enviroment first ( ask a boon prot friends of yours to scrimmage ) and ask for other's opinions before saying its the UBER MEGA MASTER build, this just made you look ( very ) stupid in front of real PvP'ers.

PvPers such as yourself?

First thing first - I couldnt' show video of the build playing against real people because of privacy issues. I wasn't gonna go through all the trouble of obtaining permission and what-not. That seemed unnecessary.

Otherwise, you seem inflated and misinformed. I'd like to see a quote of mine where I bragged of this build being superior in any way. Distinguish fact from opinion, please. That hostility helps no one.

The Real Roy Keane · Sep 13, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I'm a believer in not knocking things 'til you've tried them, so I rolled the build out, travelled to RA (not the most realistic tesing environment, but the best I could do with at the time), gave it a whirl and was..pleasantly surprised. It plyed completely differently to other Warrior builds in that it was relentless, with a constant speed buff on yourself and near constant bleeding and deep wound on the target, not to mention the fact that it punished kiting foes with frequent criticals. Hell, I even got a ten consecutive streak with it, the first of two that gave me my glad title- so thanks for that.
However, it's not that this build is bad, but that the alternatives are so good(this issue has been addressed already, but it's too valid to ignore) . While a shock axe may lose out to your build in DPS, I honestly think its utility a massive spike potential make it a more viable member of a balanced build. The other build, one that's comparable to your one, is the almighty thumper. Your build wins in the survivabilty stakes, and also has the advantage of a speed buff- though most thumper heavy groups WILL bring a charcter with 'Charge!' The problem is, the thumper really is the most relentless,punishing build out there- they can turn Guardians and Aegis's against the caster with frequent knockdowns, and even should the Ranger be shut down, the pet will continue to put out reasonable damage, especially with Enraged Lunge on their bar. To be honest, I think there's a reason Battle Rage hasn't found its way into high level PvP yet.
That said, having played it, the build does have a fairly coherent, solid feel to it, so it might be worth it in the long run to keep tweaking it; fitting it into a viable team build. maybe witht he introduction of new Warrior skills in Nightfall, Battle Rage will become the new metagame..

Evilsod · Sep 13, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

RA proves less than nothing. Just because you can get a gladiator point from a pure damage build in a place full of completely random builds doesn't show anything. The reason why everyone seems to get 10consec wins is because the moment they hit TA they get owned. Why would this build ever hit TA? To get past smite ball, you need spike. To get past Smite, you need spike. To get past past a mesmer, you need a blessed light monk.

Even if you were hit with just Faintheartedness/Shadow of Fear you lose alot of damage, your target kites more, you gain alot less adren. Without an IAS you can't compete with the DPS of some builds that just use Frenzy. Yeah using an entire skillbar is a very bad thing to sacrifice. If you get snared often or repeatadly miss attacks you have no DPS at all hardly, at least a shock axe has the durability to bring To the limit to charge adren in tricky situations.

Battle Rage just doesn't have the same sort of bonus' Bulls Charge has. Double adren is all nice, but if you keep knocking your target on its arse for 3 seconds everytime they try to flee you will probably end up with more DPS.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 13, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

What, an extra strike isn't damage?

Seriously, just stop posting if you aren't going to spend 5 seconds looking up what these skills do.

You just shut up if you don't know game mechanic. Two strikes can get mitigated by armor, +xx dmg ignores armor... You can use Hundred Blades for AoE and build adrenline.

Extra strike isn't +dmg, it's just that, an extra strike. Do you swing both times at 50% spd? [aka double strike in the time of one strike?] Then it might be worth it but +xx dmg is a LOT better than 'striking twice'.

Ranger's Dual Shot is utterly worthless till you can stack buffs on it like Kindle arrow.

I say Sun & Moon slash does NOT add extra damage because of the simple fact that it's 2 strikes that can't be dodged / evaded at the points. Does that make it better than regular strikes? For a near guarunteed hit, yes, but for + armor ignoring dmg? Things that'll help kill a foe faster? No, there are more dps to be had than an extra strike...

I may not be perfect in sword skills, but I'm damn sure how game mechanic works. Give me +30dmg armor ignoring than an extra strike anyday...

glountz · Sep 13, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Battle Rage is good on paper no doubt seriously.
But it lacks flexibility. The most important thing I think, is that you exchange the spike ability of the warrior for higher DPS. In 8v8 format, throwing away the warr's frenzied spike is, IMO, something you can't afford. And why you won't see BR that much in PvP.

Yanman.be · Sep 13, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I love this thread. So many people talking about things like they know it all, and clearly don't.

Byron · Sep 13, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

Hell, I even got a ten consecutive streak with it, the first of two that gave me my glad title- so thanks for that.

Cheers, mate. Glad you had fun.

Quote:

The other build, one that's comparable to your one, is the almighty thumper. Your build wins in the survivabilty stakes, and also has the advantage of a speed buff- though most thumper heavy groups WILL bring a charcter with 'Charge!'

Very true, I've even seen two copies of "Charge!" being run in a three-thumper GvG team. The speed buff combined with the IAS is deadly effective, not to mention the other strengths of the thumper build: KD and irresistible blow. I'm seeing the flaws of my rage build more and more as the days go by.

Quote:

maybe witht he introduction of new Warrior skills in Nightfall, Battle Rage will become the new metagame..

I am looking forward to that weekend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

If you get snared often or repeatadly miss attacks you have no DPS at all hardly, at least a shock axe has the durability to bring To the limit to charge adren in tricky situations.

Granted. Before even considering bringing a battle rage warrior, the team has to prepare to keep that warrior clean. Even then, guardian and aegis can't be avoided. But, keeping warriors clean is already a large part of the metagame, so I don't see that being a huge problem. Necro hexes screw with any warrior build.

But you are correct in saying that battle rage has very little, if any, utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

So many people talking about things like they know it all, and clearly don't

Even me?

stueyman2099 · Sep 13, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Well, gave it a shot in PvE, and it wa some quite nice damage yield (though I dropped severand gash for silverwing and galrath since it was abadons mouth and you can't make ppl bleed). I'll start messing with it a bit more. The big suggestion I would add is drop endure for Bulls Strike (assuming you're in a position that you have a monk at your back)